Move Up or Move On with Angela Lane and Sergey Gorbatov S4 I Ep 7

In this episode, we are joined by Angela Lane and Sergey Gorbatov, co-authors of the newly launched book Move Up or Move On and returning guests from Season 2 of the Career Transitions podcast. Angela and Sergey bring decades of experience in talent management, leadership development, and HR strategy, offering valuable insights on navigating careers in today's volatile and fragmented work environment.

Together, we explore:

• How the future of work is reshaping the psychological contract between employers and employees.
• The increasing need for workers to adapt to automation, AI, and a boundaryless workplace.
• Practical advice for professionals to remain relevant and future-proof their careers.
• Key concepts from Move Up or Move On, including building a career on your terms and the 10 practices to accelerate career growth.

Angela and Sergey also discuss the value of democratizing careers, providing actionable tips to overcome systemic barriers, and fostering transparency and honesty in organizational cultures.

Resources Mentioned:

• Move Up or Move On by Angela Lane and Sergey Gorbatov
• Fair Talk by Angela Lane and Sergey Gorbatov

Connect with us on LinkedIn:

· Vanessa Iloste (Host)

· Vanessa Teo (Host)

· Aaron Wu (Producer)

Transcript

[00:00:00] Vanessa T: Welcome to a new episode of the Career Transitions Podcast. On this episode, we speak with Angela Lane and Sergey Gorbatov, co- authors of the newly launched book Move Up or Move On. 

[00:00:16] Vanessa I: Both Angela and Sergey are senior leaders, researchers, speakers, and thought leaders in the space of talent, human resources, and career management.

[00:00:26] Vanessa T: We learned so much from Angela and Sergey on this episode. Where they share their thoughts on how the future of work is one that will become increasingly fragmented and volatile. 

[00:00:36] Vanessa I: And where the psychological contract between employees and employers is shifting. So what does this all mean for organizations and careers and how can we prepare ourselves to what will be the future of work?

[00:00:51] Tune in to this insightful episode.

[00:00:56] Vanessa T: Welcome everyone to the next episode of the career transitions podcast. The podcast where we explore what it takes to successfully navigate through career transitions, no matter which stage of life or career you're at. 

[00:01:09] Vanessa I: Today we are thrilled to welcome back to our show Angela Lane and Sergey Gorbatov, authors of the newly launched Move Up or Move On and co authors of Fair Talk.

[00:01:21] Angela and Sergey were guests on season two of our show and we are thrilled to have them back. Welcome to the show, Angela and Sergey. 

[00:01:29] Angela L: We are thrilled to be here. 

[00:01:30] Vanessa T: Angela and Sergey, it's such an honor to have you back again with us today. Now, Angela and Sergey bring a wealth of experience in talent management, human resources, and leadership development.

[00:01:40] And we can't wait to hear about their latest research. So let's dive right in. Angela and Sergey, we're witnessing a significant shift in the way work is evolving. From your perspective, what does the future of work look like? 

[00:01:56] Angela L: Well, I think we would say that it has never been more uncertain and it's never been more disjointed.

[00:02:01] I want to start, before we get to the work, I want to start with the worker, because the worker is not the same worker that we had even just a few years ago. There has been a fundamental change in the psychological contract that people have with their work, with their employers, with their organizations.

[00:02:20] We are way less open to being told how and when to work, even where to work. We want to have great jobs, but we don't want those jobs to be all of our life. We want them to be a great part of it, but not all of it. The data confirms that as workers, we don't trust our employers anymore in the way that we used to.

[00:02:38] We increasingly don't want to work for just one employer. We want to do side gigs. We want to do hustles. We want all sorts of flexibility to pursue our interests. Even if the world of work was stable, and it's not, even if it was stable, our psychological contract has changed and we are on the move.

[00:02:59] Transitions are going to be so frequent. And that's before we even talk about what's happening to the work itself. 

[00:03:07] Sergey G: To add to that, not only the workers are changing or this new worker deal, but also the work itself and where we work. So the work is likely to become more atomized, deconstructed, fragmented, so that we are able to pull it apart and see working on which tasks or which parts really adds value.

[00:03:29] And which ones can be outsourced, automated, given out to AI, but also work will increasingly become augmented. Surgeons don't have to cut anymore on many operations because it's done by a robot. So surgeons now are learning how to control the robots. A lot of work is happening with VR... augmented reality.

[00:03:51] And we are going to see more and more on that. And that work will be happening in a workplace that is very different. We believe it will become more boundaryless. Boundaryless in terms of where the work happens. So more remote, more hybrid. And this realization that work doesn't have to be at a specific physical location will sink in at some point in time.

[00:04:14] We believe that somewhere it will come to the middle, but leaning towards this boundaryless idea. Workplace will be shared with robots. So we need to get more comfortable with that and learn how to have a machine operating by your side and workplaces will become smarter. We've always been saying that office is such a dumb asset.

[00:04:33] What can you do with that? Well, if we look at, for example, Microsoft Viva, everything is being concentrated towards one screen and all the activity happening on your laptop. This question of where does the work happens? It happens on my laptop. The question is no longer "where am I?" It's the question is, "where is the work?"

[00:04:50] Vanessa I: That's really good and thank you so much for sharing. I think we were saying in the preparation of the episode that we represent three different parts of the world, the four of us, and we can see these trends happening with Vanessa as well in Asia, the psychological contract you're describing, which is very, very important also in this part of the world and the concept of flexibility, what flexibility means to any one of us, as well as the content of the work itself and what you have described, Sergey, is also happening here.

[00:05:18] It's maybe one moment or so in the history of work where things are happening so much at the same time, and this may be a new evolution or new industry of revolution, depending on who you listen to, is also different because of all the regions at the same time. 

[00:05:35] Sergey G: Yeah, that reminds me of the quote by Tom Atlee.

[00:05:38] I've come to believe that things are getting better and better, worse and worse, faster and faster, simultaneously. In this chaos, in this disjointedness, wouldn't you want to take better control of what's happening? Get better control of your career? That was one of the reasons why we wrote move up or move on.

[00:05:58] Vanessa I: Thank you for sharing this beginning. So one of the piece of work we are doing is looking at all the white papers that are out there. One of the ones we looked at is the McKinsey report, and they were saying that by 2030, up to 30 percent of current work hours would be automated. How do you think this level of automation will impact job markets and individual carriers?

[00:06:21] Sergey G: Yeah, we see this report coming out, and there was also World Economic Forum report saying that up to 40 percent of jobs will disappear. Something will definitely be happening. It's a shift. It's a wave that's coming, and we'd better start preparing for that. If you believe, and I have every reason to believe, that automation will take parts of our jobs and will make them easier, that will create time.

[00:06:46] The question is, what will you do with that time? And okay, you can just do more of what you do that hasn't been automated yet, and that can help you in short term, but that won't position you for long term success. In order to be successful long term, you need to do stuff differently. And for that, you need to know how you create value and what value means.

[00:07:07] And we do talk about this concept of value in the book. And actually, I really like how Angela positioned that, and she has a unique perspective on this topic. 

[00:07:16] Angela L: Thank you, Sergey. That's actually very, very kind of you. You know, when we think about value, we spend a lot of time encouraging anybody to think about value in terms of the value received.

[00:07:27] Who is it that benefits from the product that you produce? What you think they may value and what they actually value may be different. And often what people value about us at work is not the things that are listed in the job description. We encourage people to spend time unpacking. What is it that you do that others value?

[00:07:48] Because it is in that, that you can feel confident around building your career. We love a quote, it's from Jeff Bezos from Amazon, where he talks about building strategy on the basis of what you know to be true. What is it that you know to be true today and tomorrow? Well, a lot of our job is changing. We don't know what it'll look like tomorrow.

[00:08:06] But there are things that we do that add value. And we know that we'll be able to add that value now and in the future. I do have a point of view, not unexpectedly. I think that there are huge implications for our collective learning agility, our ability to adapt and to grow and to develop. Let's think about it.

[00:08:27] Talent is in short supply, certainly in the Western part of the world. It's true in Asia, particularly in those countries, markets like Japan, you might think of with aging demographics, there are real labor shortages. Automation has the power to alleviate those and that's a great thing. But it means that employees need to have the skills to do the jobs that can't be replaced.

[00:08:51] That means we need to learn how to create value. In the job, we have, well, simultaneously being open to learn new things and open to then go and do more of those new things. As parts of older jobs disappear. Our book talks about this concept, we call it multiplying your opportunities. Being open to do more things, being open to do different things.

[00:09:13] In the future, if you think of organizations, they'll get flatter. So being open to projects, to lateral moves, to take on a different set of skills and the ability to learn that as you are working within the current work is going to be key. There is going to be, we think, and Sergey, you touched on it. A period of disruption, we refer to what we see as a period of chaos, but if in that moment you can figure out how to create value for others and learn the skills that deliver that value, you're going to thrive.

[00:09:45] Vanessa T: I love what you talked about adding value and how there are some aspects of jobs that will be really hard to automate. Can you give us some examples of things that we can be doing? 

[00:09:56] Angela L: In an increasingly kind of complex world of work and where the solutions are getting more complicated, people need to have deep subject matter expertise, but it will take a lot of experts to come together to produce any final product, what was true before continues to be true, there is a premium that will be paid for people that have great people skills. For people who are brilliant at bringing others together, for people who are wonderful at creating alignment. If I was listening to this podcast, I'd be saying, ask yourself questions like, can you build strong, trusting interpersonal relationships? Are you known for how you collaborate? Can you work seamlessly as a member of a team and put the team ahead of yourself?

[00:10:44] Do you include everybody that is a part of that team, regardless of what is different between you? Can you make everyone on the team feel good? In a world of artificial intelligence, It's emotional intelligence that's going to win. 

[00:10:57] Sergey G: And there is a lot to consider, right? We can add adaptability, agility, all those skills that potentially could be automated, but also those skills that will differentiate you if you're doing it better than others.

[00:11:10] Those type of skills will give you a career edge. And so far we've touched upon skills that can be automated and can't. So those uniquely human skills will come at a premium. But let's talk about skills that shouldn't be automated. Now they can be, but they shouldn't. For instance, let's talk about governance and who guards the guardians.

[00:11:32] AI can pass judgment, but it doesn't have ethics and morals. It doesn't have wisdom. Those skills need to be retained as human. And of course we need to understand how the technology works, not necessarily the programming, but the principles, how to use tech, AI can create a strategy for you. And actually I've already tried doing that, you know, putting in some inputs, explaining the organization, explaining the tasks and say, can you create a talent strategy and did a good job, but is it any good in terms of applying to the context and understanding the people, the politics.

[00:12:06] Critical thinking, judgment, complex problem solving should not be outsourced to AI. And finally, maybe let's talk about artistic skills. Can AI do art? Yes. Can it create art with a capital C? No, it won't be the next Malevich or Picasso. There are skills that can't be automated and they will come at a premium and skills that shouldn't be automated.

[00:12:30] And we need to provide some guardrails around them and also invest in their development. 

[00:12:36] Vanessa T: I love what you guys talked about. The skills that are really going to be valued and the skills that will be so difficult and you shouldn't be automating skills around leadership skills, people's skills, the ability to adapt, the ability to learn quickly, all these being really important.

[00:12:53] So. It certainly gives us a great deal of hope knowing that not all of our jobs are going to be automated and taken away by AI, but it really does take a lot more out of professionals to be able to learn in these new ways, in ways that perhaps not everyone has actively thought about, but hopefully hearing what you guys have to say in your new book, which we're going to get right to, I think it will give us some good ideas.

[00:13:16] Vanessa I: We love the new book, Move Up or Move On. Congratulations on the launch. First, can you share with us what inspired you both to embark on this book, all while having a busy career as HR practitioners and researchers? 

[00:13:29] Sergey G: Yeah, of course. This book has been probably more than 20 years in the making, Vanessa. And, um, in our collective experience, we've been watching people frustrated with their careers, coming for advice, not knowing what to do, and being faced with so many contradictory advice, advice that's simply not true, advice that their boss or the organization will never give or won't give in full.

[00:13:58] So if you go to amazon.com and you type in Korea, you'll get more than 40, 000 hits. And you will get advice that's often not true or contradictory. So, for example, good work speaks for itself. We know that is not true. You need to advocate for yourself. You need to make yourself and your work visible. So, invest in personal branding.

[00:14:19] For some time, there was a book called Range, very popular. And it taught the importance of being a generalist in this ever changing, chaotic, disjointed world. Well, it might be true, but in what context and for whom, we always teach that you need to define your own career vision. You need to understand what career success means personally to you.

[00:14:41] And then from that, you build your own talent strategy. So just taking advice from range at face value may make you successful, but it won't make you fulfilled. It won't make you satisfied and there is nothing worse than looking back at your 20, 30 years of career and thinking that was not the life that I wanted.

[00:15:01] That was not the career that I wanted. We wanted to fill this gap and also to put together this disparate disjointed field of career advice by providing a comprehensive model. And when we did that, it actually all fell into place. 

[00:15:17] Angela L: We have this view that we can democratize careers. What do we mean by that?

[00:15:23] If you think about how career success works in practice, let's have a candid conversation. Careers aren't very fair. Career success doesn't always go to those that deserve it most. Who usually wins? Maybe your parents were successful corporate executives or had professional careers. If you went to an elite school, if your parents had degrees and you were not the first to go to college. If you're in a country where you're speaking the first language with your first language. Maybe you just had access to the most wonderful leader or coach at exactly the right moment.

[00:15:56] The data supports that those correlations lead to success. Not one of those things had anything to do with merit. Not one. What do we think? We think we can give people an edge by teaching them about the reality of how career success actually happens. We think we can deliver satisfaction at work for the many, not just for the few.

[00:16:19] If you've got some of those advantages that I've listed, that's fantastic. And we would encourage you, we would be the first to encourage you, take every advantage that you can. But if you didn't have those advantages, there are still concrete, learnable skills that can help you level the playing field.

[00:16:36] There is fantastic power in democratizing careers. Lots of benefits for the individual. Their satisfaction at work can increase. That increases their health outcomes. It increases the quality of their personal relationships outside of work. But I can imagine there are listeners going, Oh, but what about the company?

[00:16:53] It's not all about the employee. I say this with such conviction, when people have greater clarity on their career goals, when they're focused on their performance, when they understand it's important to be a good colleague, when they step up to opportunities, that's in the company interest as well. So this democratization of careers also benefits our organizations.

[00:17:16] A real synergy in what works for the employee can work for the company. 

[00:17:22] Vanessa T: You can't tell that I get very passionate about it, can you? You are so passionate about this topic, and we love it. What really resonated with me in your book were the number of practical tips that you offer throughout your book.

[00:17:36] And there are several exercises, there are some tools, and I found those to be really, really helpful. Tell us more. What can readers expect to find in the book? 

[00:17:46] Sergey G: We are all about being practical. We're like models and we do get excited when we hear the word model, but we're all about applying that and practicing those skills.

[00:17:56] First, we firmly believe that those 10 practices that we've outlined in the book, they are things that can be easily be incorporated and integrated in your day to day learning routines. It's something small that you can practice over and over. It's behavioral, which means that it's observable and you can get feedback on that.

[00:18:16] And we also provide a way for you to think strategically and plan your development so that you know exactly where to focus on. The book is also accompanied by a diagnostic. So it's not just your perspective, not just your reflection, but you can get an objective view on your talent management capability.

[00:18:36] And the diagnostic is very short, it's just 50 questions, but by answering that, you can quickly understand where your highs, where your lows, so that you can channel and focus your energy into areas that matters most for your career and for your development. 

[00:18:54] Angela L: With diagnostic help to sort of help focus, we hope people come away with a feeling, I was supported in this journey.

[00:19:02] This is doable for me. We want people to have a feeling of, it's not overwhelming. I can focus. I can take the book and treat it as a workbook. In each chapter, I can do exercises. I can explore topics. I can make small adjustments. And that these small adjustments are going to accumulate and tilt the curve in ways that over time start to really accelerate my progress.

[00:19:31] The thing that I hope we've achieved, hope we've achieved, we want, to Sergey's point, the practicality. To my point, we want that practicality to make people feel supported and cared for. and nurtured through the process, but if it was not science based, if it was not comprehensive, if it was not robust, it wouldn't deliver.

[00:19:54] And so we hope we've made simple what sits on top of an incredible wealth of science and research. And when you get the book, you'll see the deep research behind. We've made a model that does the heavy lifting of understanding all that science by presenting very simple concepts, a very simple construct.

[00:20:15] You don't have to know the science, understand the behaviors and you can really have an edge. 

[00:20:21] Sergey G: And when we coach others and teach using the model, the most frequent feedback that we hear is it starts making sense. Like now I understand because the model is also sequential. So it forces you to think about your career, not as an event, but as a process.

[00:20:37] It evolves over time. That's why you need to think about your career management as steps. And when you look at the chapters and each element of our model is a separate chapter, you always start with align to purpose. So you need to say, okay, where is it that I'm going? What's my career vision? Then chapter two, plan your pathways.

[00:20:55] Okay. So there are many different ways on how you can get there. Which one do I choose? Because each one comes with its benefits and trade offs. And it also forces you to think, okay, what am I willing to do? Okay. and what I'm not willing to do. Once you have that career plan, you need to understand, okay, how do I make it happen, and you get ahead and get along in your career by delivering value, being rewarding to work with, and ensuring that it's sustainable, so that you need also to develop to make sure that you can deliver that value, not only today, but also tomorrow.

[00:21:28] As we mentioned, good work doesn't speak for itself, so you need to make yourself and your work visible to a vast network of your contacts. And at any given point in time, career is a numbers game. So if you want to win a raffle, buy more raffle tickets. If you want to get a hand in your career, multiply options.

[00:21:46] And once you have those options available to you, make the right choices and then make a transition, right? So, and I guess, particularly interesting to the listeners of your podcasts about transition, but once you've made that transition, you need to rethink all of that again, because one of our key principles in career and talent management, life happens.

[00:22:06] This is also a model that's evergreen. And when you talk about your careers like that, it just brings clarity and it makes people feel excited, energized, empowered to have a career on their terms. 

[00:22:20] Vanessa I: Thank you for bringing this clarity and thank you for bringing us some new frameworks because as practitioner with Vanessa T, we can feel like the lack of framework is sometimes a problem and it's sometimes impede us from sharing with all the talent the opportunities of other career transitions, such as lateral transitions, such as, you know, projects. So having your framework is going to be a good advocate for us to ensure that our talent can continue their journey. 

[00:22:48] One of the questions that we are being asked all the time by the people who listen to the Career Transition Podcast is around the moment to actually choose to change.

[00:22:58] And we wanted also to ask you the question around that moment. So when it comes to that moment, how can individuals recognize when it's the time to make a change and transition to a new role or even to a new career? 

[00:23:12] Angela L: Probably the most critical question that anyone can ask themselves. When is the right time for me, if I use the language of the book to move up, to move on, to move over, you name it.

[00:23:22] And our book is premised on this idea that you need to build a career on your terms with no judgment by others, this idea that you have laid out a path that is unique to you. And we suggest people spend a lot of time Deeply being introspective to understand what it means to have a career that is unique to you and not meeting the expectation of others.

[00:23:46] Assuming though that you are somewhere on that path of more of what you want, if the question is, when is it the time to change roles? You may change careers if you're not on the path you want, but if you're on that path and we're thinking about, but when do I get a new role? When should I think about that?

[00:24:05] I think it's chapter two of that book actually gives guidance that there are three things you ought to think about. It may be time to move on if you're not performing. Now, ideally we want people to turn things around, but if you're not in a situation where you can turn it around, it may be time to transition to another role.

[00:24:22] So not performing. Right. Second one, maybe you're no longer learning. If you think again, and Sergey, you made the point beautifully, that this career is something that plays out all the time. At any point in time, we're not only doing today's work adding value today, we're investing in the development of skills that help move me through time.

[00:24:42] If I'm in a job and I'm no longer learning, the things I'll need to move me, progress me over time, it may be time to think about what is my next role. We have the third one and it may actually be even more important than one or two. If you ever find yourself in an environment where you are not respected, you are not treated appropriately, where the culture is toxic, there is no winning in that environment.

[00:25:09] You know, we hope people don't see those environments often, but sometimes you may be performing well, you may still have a lot to learn, but for your own self esteem, it may be the right time to move on. 

[00:25:21] Vanessa T: I really liked those three points, not performing, no longer learning. and a toxic culture. The three things to remember when it is in fact time for you to move on.

[00:25:31] It goes back to having those transparent discussions as a leader, as an organization, and keeping it real for our employees. And I've got to go back to your first book because this was the book that really made an impression on me when I first read your first book. Your first book, Fair Talk, you discussed the importance of transparent and honest communication in career development.

[00:25:53] And I think many leaders know this theoretically, but really struggle to put this into practice. I mean, particularly when you talk about those three key points, sometimes leaders really struggle to communicate that. I'd love for you, if you could share how some of the best leaders and organizations foster a culture that supports this transparency and honesty.

[00:26:13] Sergey G: That's a great question and thank you for your kind feedback, Vanessa. Organizations are inherently political. So openness, transparency, honesty are things that need to be built intentionally. Otherwise, you shouldn't be expecting them. Just this week, we crowdsourced a few answers on LinkedIn. So we posted a question.

[00:26:35] What are some little dirty secrets of career that your boss won't tell you? And the answer is that we got would be funny if it weren't said. Bob Eichinger, who is the guru in talent and development said that this little secret is, I put you on the high potential list, but they took you off. Mark Efron said, if you become my friend, you'll go farther in the company.

[00:26:57] So true, but we don't hear that from our bosses. But one thing that specifically stood out for me was this phrase from Mel Steinbach, who is head of people at Masterclass. And she said that this little dirty secret that your boss won't tell you, I don't care about your career as much as I care about mine.

[00:27:15] We know that there is a lot to be desired when it comes to honesty and transparency in the organizations. It doesn't happen often. It doesn't happen everywhere because it takes a concerted effort. It is a capability, so we need to address it as a capability. So think about it. If I want my organization to be more honest, more transparent and foster that communication.

[00:27:38] Well, first of all, it starts with leadership. How do I role model it? How do I provide that tone from the top and how do I hold myself and my team accountable? Then we need to look at the structure. You know, is it very hierarchical or is it flat? Transparency, openness is more inherent and more likely to happen in an organization where there is a lot of collaboration and where the silos are broken down rather than in a very hierarchical bureaucratic organization.

[00:28:06] You need to look at the policy, you know, what do your policies say about transparency? How transparent should we be with our employees? And then how is it hardwired into the processes that's run? Then people won't become transparent and honest all the time. Some don't know what it means and can't have those difficult conversations because it requires some courage and it requires skill.

[00:28:26] So how do we deliver that skill and how do we deliver that competency to people? And then how do we know that it actually works? Can we track that progress and know that directionally we're moving in the way and in the manner that we should? When leaders think about that as a capability, that's the opportunity.

[00:28:44] That's the way to make it happen. But then it also requires being more strategic, more intentional. And of course that requires investment. 

[00:28:51] Vanessa I: When you came on our show, the last time you spoke of how we should see our carriers as investment portfolios, it seems even more important now that given the dynamics we live in, both of you are living proof that building a strong career portfolio can be done.

[00:29:05] How do you both find the time to do this? 

[00:29:08] Angela L: Today, we laughed at this before the recording was on. We have some folks in Asia, they're working on their Sunday evening. We have some folks in Europe, that's in Sunday afternoon, and some folks in the U. S. on their Sunday morning. So I think that kind of pretty much describes how we get things done.

[00:29:22] So we do dedicate a lot of our personal time to pursuing a topic that we love. We feel that it is important, but there is no substitute for also having, and you guys are a great example of this. Vanessa's are the best example. A great partnership, when working together is a pleasure, being together is a pleasure, talking about stuff that you are passionate about is a pleasure, you don't kind of feel like you're at work.

[00:29:47] We loved our work so much, we decided that we would do it on holiday. 

[00:29:51] Sergey G: I remember your husband complaining that he sees less of you on holiday than I do. We do talk about it in the book, we teach about it, and we are a living proof that trade offs are to be considered. But when you do what you love, The choices are easier.

[00:30:04] Vanessa I: I think it's a very good reminder because there is so much out there, especially in social media, making us believe that, you know, the life is easy and it comes with a lot of personal leisure. The reality, I believe, is very different. You are the example of that. Most of the people that we know are successful because of their hard work and hard work doesn't happen by magic when we sleep.

[00:30:27] So, uh, it's great that you remind everyone that this is your living truth. So thank you for being honest today. We've gathered so many valuable insights from both of you and we're very thankful for them. As we reflect on the rapidly changing world of work, what are the top three tips for professionals to future proof their careers?

[00:30:47] Angela L: So for me, the top three is make a personal promise to yourself that you will explore what your career vision is. People spend an incredibly small amount of time discovering what will make them happy. So my first tip, commit to exploring that. You cannot chase something that you haven't identified.

[00:31:08] Define what that means to you and then believe that with the right tools, the right support, the right focus, you can take control of work and get more of what you want. Commit to figuring out what that is and then believe you can do it. 

[00:31:23] Sergey G: I'll offer a different way to frame it, but basically talking about the same.

[00:31:27] Start with self awareness. The more self aware you are, the more successful you are in every single aspect of your life. So know who you are, where you're going, what you want, and make it crystal clear. Two, make good decisions on how you achieve that, how you create value, how you grow your network, how you choose between different opportunities that you've created for yourself.

[00:31:47] And three. Just do it because you can do all this work and define the plan and prepare it. But then you just need to execute it. A little action goes a long way. 

[00:31:58] Vanessa T: Love it. I love how you so succinctly put it into such concise points. The piece about really knowing who you are, defining your purpose, your career vision, understanding what really makes you happy.

[00:32:11] Believing that you can do it and then actually do it with that. We thank you so much, Angela and Sergey for coming onto our show. Second time around, huge congratulation on your new book. And we really, really appreciate you coming on our show to share your wisdom with our listeners again. Thank you very much.

[00:32:32] It's been such a pleasure having you with us. Thank you so much. We're delighted to have been invited back. 

[00:32:37] Sergey G: It's so much fun and hope we don't need to write a third book to get invited again. 

[00:32:42] Vanessa I: We'll make it happen no matter what.