Playing the Long Game with Angela Lane and Sergey Gorbatov S2 I Ep9

On this episode of the Career Transitions podcast, we have the pleasure of interviewing Angela Lane and Sergey Gorbatov.

Angela and Sergey are esteemed senior executives in talent management with extensive experience working for Fortune 500 companies across four continents. They are both renowned experts in the complex science of human performance, distilling it into practical and accessible concepts. As thought leaders and researchers, they frequently contribute to journals and have authored the insightful book, "FairTalk: Three Steps to Powerful Feedback."

During the interview, Angela and Sergey share their expertise in areas such as personal branding, career development, transitions, and performance management. Drawing from years of research and leadership experiences, they provide valuable insights on these topics.

One fascinating aspect of our conversation was discovering how both Angela and Sergey have cultivated a portfolio career throughout their professional journeys. In addition to holding senior leadership roles within their organisations, they have leveraged their expertise to expand their skill sets and career interests as speakers, authors, and industry thought leaders.

Their book, "FairTalk: Three Steps to Powerful Feedback," is a must-read for all leaders. Angela and Sergey offer a practical methodology for accurately assessing barriers to performance and present a simple three-step model for providing fair, focused, and credible feedback. 

Tune in to this engaging podcast episode to gain valuable insights from Angela Lane and Sergey Gorbatov, as they share their wealth of knowledge and experiences in the realm of leadership and career development.

To learn more about Angela and Sergey’s works, see below: 

• The Edge You Need
• Leverage Point Podcast

Pick up a copy of their book: Fair Talk: Three Steps to Powerful Feedback 

The views expressed here are solely those of the speakers/ authors and do not represent those of any affiliated organization. 

Connect with us on LinkedIn:

· Vanessa Iloste (Host)

· Vanessa Teo (Host)

· Aaron Wu (Producer)

Transcript

[00:00:00] Vanessa T: Welcome everyone, to the next episode of the Career Transitions Podcast. 

[00:00:10] Vanessa I: Vanessa T, we have spoken many times about the importance of building a dynamic career portfolio. 

[00:00:16] Vanessa T: Yes, we have. And on this episode, we bring in two role models. We welcome Angela Lane and Sergey Gorbatov, both of whom are senior executives in Human Resources, and they are also thought leaders, researchers, regular contributors to journals, and the authors of Fair Talk, Three Steps to Powerful Feedback.

[00:00:38] Vanessa I: We had a very engaging discussion with them. And like master chefs in the kitchen, both Angela and Sergey served us some very good dishes that make the recipe for having a great career. 

[00:00:51] Vanessa T: So we'll talk about how you think about your career as a long game, how you build your personal branding, how you improve through feedback, and, very importantly, How you strategize your career like you would an investment portfolio.

[00:01:05] We hope you get all of these ingredients to making a great career. Hi everyone, welcome to our new episode of Career Transitions. We're your hosts Vanessa Iloste and Vanessa Teo. And today we're super honored to have with us two very special guests, Angela Lane and Sergey Gorbatov. Welcome to our show guys.

[00:01:29] Angela L: Thank you, Vanessa, Vanessa. It's great to be here. It is great to be here. Thank you so much. 

[00:01:34] Vanessa I: Angela and Sergey work and write about the complex science of human performance while making it simple. Both are practicing senior executive in talent management, leveraging Fortune 500 experience gained across four continents.

[00:01:50] Angela and Sergey equip leaders with practical tools for success. They are thought leader, researchers, regular contributors to journals and authors of a book called Fair Talk, Three Steps to Powerful Feedback. 

[00:02:05] Vanessa T: Welcome to our show, Angela and Sergey. I've had the pleasure of working with both of you during my time at the organization and both of you inspired me, not just about being great leaders in the organization, but also being industry thought leaders and experts in the field of talent, career management, and on the topic of future of work. So we're really excited to have you with us today. 

[00:02:30] Vanessa I: And even if I've never worked with you guys, because I talk to Vanessa T every week, I actually have the feeling that I know you already. And I've been very impressed with all the things you have created over the last two or three years.

[00:02:43] So congratulations to both of you. You have both developed quite a career portfolio. You are a corporate HR leader, authors, speakers, researcher, and of course, you are a podcaster. As opposed to developing just a singular career path, you have created a very rich career portfolio. So many of our listeners may be wondering, how are you doing all these things together?

[00:03:06] Maybe it would be great if you could share with us your secrets. 

[00:03:10] Angela L: I don't know that we do it as well as we make it look. I think we, in the background, we're scrambling a lot of the time, but one of the things that you'll maybe hear us talk about this later that I think is so true, there are synergies to be had.

[00:03:24] If you are doing work that you love and you're doing it in an office in a traditional corporate role. And you come home and you're reading about it because there was something that made you curious. If then you decide you're going to write something and post it because you want to provoke a conversation, it's really easy when all that was already interesting to you and you were already curious about it.

[00:03:48] And writing was easy because you enjoyed the book. Going to work the next day and applying a concept is easy because you now feel confident that you know your area. So yes, go where you can do work that you love and work the synergies. 

[00:04:01] Sergey G: Angela, you were talking about doing the work that you love. I remember that movie, Julia and Julia, with Meryl Streep and Stanley Tucci, and they were having a conversation about what Julie could do because she followed her husband to France and she didn't have any occupation.

[00:04:18] So he asked her, what is it that you love? Eat, she said. And then she discovered how she could really leverage her, combine her love for eating with different things, writing a book, having a show. And that is the main principle of getting more of what you want from your career. Identify that, what is it that you love and then start diversifying your experience.

[00:04:44] And do it methodologically, just like an investor would do. And because that is the best guarantee for the future. And that will also ensure the biggest ROI on your career investment. 

[00:04:58] Angela L: And Sergey, as you've been speaking, I was thinking of one other field. You know, we heard Vanessa say to Vanessa, we've worked together for a long time.

[00:05:08] Working with people that you like, people you love, people whose thought process you respect. It turns every professional conversation into a conversation you'd want to have anyway, because you're with smart people, fun people, et cetera. I don't know where that fits in, but it's certainly true for me. 

[00:05:29] Sergey G: One more thing, uh, is about being positive and curious about opportunities because opportunities come our way all the time.

[00:05:38] And in my practice, I've met so many people that say, Oh, it's not for me. It's not the right time. I'm too busy. Why would I do that? No one above me is doing anything like that. So why should I? And there is a different type of people have their eyes wide open and say, yes, yes, yes, as long that is consistent with their career vision.

[00:06:02] Tightly formulated set of criteria of what opportunities they would consider or not. And when those two click, it's just like on a slot machine, you know, ding, ding, ding, banana, banana, banana. Yes, let's go for it. And people who have this disciplined approach to evaluating opportunities, well, they just multiply their options.

[00:06:22] Vanessa I: Very good. I like your analogy, Sergey, when it comes to the investment. I mean, maybe you can tell us your own experience. Like when you say, for instance, the concept of diversifying your experience or diversifying your skillsets. 

[00:06:37] Sergey G: In several ways, when I think about my career as an undergraduate student, I went to the States for a year to study, then already working for Shell, I moved down to South Africa, a different continent, totally different culture.

[00:06:51] Moving to Spain, moving to Switzerland, uh, moving to California to look after Latin America. So that geographical background is very important. And I believe that it's important to live in those countries because there are so many people who have regional roles, global roles, never leaving their city where they were born in, their county, their little piece of the world.

[00:07:15] So that's one way. The other way is the types of roles that you do, at what level you work. I worked in affiliates. I worked for regions. I work at global levels with very small companies, with very big companies. Industries. I worked at an NGO. I worked for private organizations, large multinationals, also academic institutions, and you learn everywhere.

[00:07:39] So I can go on and on and on. The types of companies, the roles, the type of people that you work with. There are so many dimensions. And the richer those dimensions are, the richer your career, the more upholstered, the more diverse, interesting, curious, and weird, maybe sometimes, because who knew that I would go on my own?

[00:08:01] Who knew that Angela and I would have a podcast? It's just seeing those opportunities and adding them to your portfolio. 

[00:08:09] Vanessa I: Have you done the same, Angela, with your career? 

[00:08:12] Angela L: Absolutely. And I like Sergey, geography and geographic moves have been important in that different industry types have been important at that.

[00:08:22] The one that is really challenging me at the moment, I sit on a board and it's a board advising an academic institution on what are the skills certain professions are going to need in the future. And during my day, I'm often working with things that are very pragmatic. This gives me the idea of now I need to change.

[00:08:41] And think differently, I've got to think about the future, I've got to think about what we don't know yet, and all of it sharpens you to be better at each thing. 

[00:08:51] Vanessa T: I love the analogy that both of you bring to the table, this thing about how that portfolio career helps to sharpen your skills, even at your day job, and I see that coming through for both of you at your day jobs, you're even more effective, you're better thought leaders.

[00:09:08] Because of that diversity of experiences and that diversity of thinking that you have. This brings me to my next question about that long game in your career. And maybe I'll start with you, Angela. So as a talent lead, you've advised countless people on, on careers. And one of the best pieces of advice that you've given to me is about playing the career long game.

[00:09:31] And we experienced so many different things in our careers, and you have to make trade offs, that personal commitments that sometimes may seem to collide with career opportunities. And I'm just wondering if you could share a little bit more, some of your thinking around playing the long game in careers.

[00:09:48] Angela L: Absolutely. And I have to start with an honest confession. This is what I know to be true after 30 years in the industry. I did not know it to be true when I started. And so some of the things that I would say to someone now when I'm coaching, some of the guidance I would give is the guidance someone should have given me.

[00:10:08] I wished someone had given me. You know, as I say, a long time ago, but one of the insights that Sergey and I have had as we've written and studied careers is this idea that careers are distinguished because of their ability to be impacted by both what is internal to us and what is external to us, the market, the opportunities, but also distinguished by the fact that they happen all the time.

[00:10:34] And we often forget that time is something we can manipulate. Time is something we could plan, time is something that we can use to our advantage. And we often feel frustrated or disappointed because something's not happening now, or we feel conflicted. I want to do all of these things and I don't have time now.

[00:10:54] We encourage when we teach, when we coach, the people to map out time and to look at time and ask themselves, which times, which horizons, which eras for me? Will be ones where I can accelerate, and which times will be ones where I need to stay the course, but can give myself permission not to do more than stay the course.

[00:11:20] And we would say to people, if you have A young family, if you have responsibility, caring for elders, if you need to support your partner now in their career, that's okay, as long as it's a strategy as long as you go. Yep. And then I know when, when my era happens, and I'm planning for that now. So yeah, we just encourage people to be so intentional about time and I would give you, I don't know, just a way of thinking about this end.

[00:11:50] I am sitting in Chicago, coming to you from Chicago, so I'm sitting in the U. S. just at the minute, where folks don't tend to get a lot of vacation. And so something I've observed since I've been here is people plan so much for that two week vacation. They plan everything, right? They're planning it out. If we spend half as much, a quarter as much, an eighth, a tenth, planning our career horizon, Our careers would just look so much better, and by better I mean they would contain so much more of what we want.

[00:12:25] So play the long game, use time as your friend, figure out when are my phases for moving fast, when is it okay, I give myself permission, to slow down. But just do it strategically.

[00:12:38] Sergey G: I love what you said, Angela, and how you framed it. Time is your friend. I remember in my career for a period of four years. I couldn't move out of Spain for a number of reasons.

[00:12:51] And I knew that had I had that flexibility, I would have accelerated my career. I would have moved to a different geography, but I couldn't. So I looked at other available options and I thought, okay, how can I get more of what I want? And in those four years, I had the opportunity to complete a doctorate and write a book, something that helped me later.

[00:13:14] When I took that decision to leave the corporate world and start my own business thinking, okay, now it's time to slow down, stupid me. Running your own business is nothing but running at full speed and I'm learning enormously, but I'm looking at it as this point in time and this opportunity and thinking about it strategically.

[00:13:33] That is, where do I want to go? What are the learning opportunities and what are the experiences that I need and how am I getting more of them? 

[00:13:42] Angela L: Another way of thinking about it is to look at it in reverse. I'll share a story. As I said, I learned this later, I was living in the UK. That was not my home country.

[00:13:53] I was there with my husband. I had a three year old son and I found I was having another baby. I was due to move to the Netherlands and I could have put off that move. I could have spoken to my company, great company, but I felt, no, I had to keep going. I've got to keep going. And I look back now and hindsight is a great thing and what I would give for 12 months with that new baby. And you don't get time back. So aligning to what is important, making that the criteria by which you play with time is so important. And we should teach it. We should teach it to everybody that is in college. We should teach it to everyone that is in high school.

[00:14:35] Vanessa I: It should be part of the life skills. And I think Angela, we should incorporate in the life skills, the concept of time. 

[00:14:42] Angela L: Exactly. And you know, one of the things that I, and I say, and we say it very candidly. As people who love working in corporate environments have been successful in corporate environments, but eyes wide open, companies will not teach you this.

[00:14:57] Companies will not tell you this, it is their role, their responsibility, their priority to make decisions in the service of the business. It is your job as a husband or wife to make jobs that are in the interest of your satisfaction over time. So yes, we need to teach it while they're at school because people won't tell you this stuff.

[00:15:19] Vanessa I: So now we are moving to the idea of branding. And I was curious to ask Sergey about this topic because I've heard from Vanessa T that you have done a lot of research on that topic. So I wanted to ask you, Sergey, if you can share with us why is it so important, according to you, to work on our personal branding in order to, to play the long game?

[00:15:41] Sergey G: Yeah, thanks for the question, Vanessa. And the research on personal branding is really fascinating. And what we found in our studies is that people who do more personal branding, that is strategic, differentiated, tech savvy, they are more satisfied with their career, they're happier in their jobs, and they're more employable, both in terms of feeling that they have a range of opportunities, but also getting better performance ratings from their employers.

[00:16:11] Isn't that great? Just thinking that if I make myself and my work visible. It's not just for the benefit of having an image or appearance or something. It has very tangible consequences in terms of your performance at work. If I were to summarize personal branding, it will boil down to two questions. What do people say about you when you are not in the room?

[00:16:35] And is that how you want to be? And if you have clear answers to those questions. And in our experience, not many people do. That will identify the gap for you and that gap will be a call to action. And the way how you will be closing the gap between today's self and the desired self is in three factors.

[00:16:57] It's a brand appeal, brand differentiation, and brand recognition. Brand appeal. How do I come across to my target audience? So people that I want to cater to, how do they perceive me? Is that as positive as I want? Brand differentiation is whether you stand alone from the crowd. And whether you're awful, what you do, how you do it, your personality really differentiated.

[00:17:21] And in that respect, sometimes being quirky is a good thing because people remember quirky one of our colleagues. And so Angela, Vanessa, you would know her. So her name is Dora. And I love the way how she would introduce herself every time that she would start the meeting. Or do a training and say, hi, my name is Dora and you'll remember me because of Dora the Explorer.

[00:17:42] That's fantastic. People will always remember her name. And the third factor is brand recognition. That is, will people be able to recall, to recognize what is so unique? What's standing out? What are the traits and attributes of your personal brand? And I love this one lady. She always wears black and red.

[00:18:02] So whatever she does on her business cards, her books, her presentations, how she dresses, it's black and red. So you can expect, right? So a personal brand is all about consistency. So remember, what do people say about you when you're not in the room? Is that how you want to be known? And if not, what do you need to change and do it consistently?

[00:18:24] Vanessa T: I love how you talk about personal branding, Sergey, and I, I absolutely resonate with some of the points that you've brought up about. The appeal, the differentiation and, and the recognition. So sometimes, depending on culture, sometimes people could say this might come across as being a little showy, like you're showing off a little bit too much.

[00:18:45] How do you address that? Because we all know it's so important in building your careers. 

[00:18:50] Sergey G: So Angela and I, we talk about it. We even came up with a term, being humbly conspicuous. Humility. And showing off, how can you make sure that you are standing out while sitting in? And you're absolutely right, Vanessa, you need to bear in mind the cultural aspects and culture, not only about national culture or geography, but also in the company, there are companies where showing off and, uh, very individualistic.

[00:19:16] It's all about you and how you achieve the results. And there are cultures that are very collegiate, that's very family like. In either of those, there are always opportunities to do things different. Oh, your company appreciates teamwork. Be the best team worker and do something with your team that no one else does.

[00:19:32] Something that is very aligned with the culture and you're adding your unique self to that. And don't overreach. The moment you overreach, that becomes bragging, that becomes showy, and that becomes disingenuous. 

[00:19:46] Angela L: One of the things we do. I want to say myth busting. We talk to people a lot about the fact that good work will not speak for itself.

[00:19:57] We see a lot of great people looking hard, hoping that someone will notice. And people will push back on me, Oh, Angela, I don't like, I shouldn't have to network. I shouldn't have to talk about my, no, you perhaps shouldn't. But if you don't just be aware, good work may not speak to itself. And we provoke people by saying, does anyone in this room know of somebody who got promoted when they weren't the best person for the job, or they got a hit when you knew there were great, you know, gaps in their skills, and every hand gets raised in their room. We can all think of that example. Well, don't feel unhappy about that. If you were not prepared to talk about what you could do, think of it in terms of self advocacy, because we would all agree that we should self advocate.

[00:20:47] It's very positive. We have a, we have a photo that we use and it's a dog and he's digging in the garden and you can tell, you can't see because it's all underground, but you can tell he's working hard, but you can't see the results of what he produces. So make your work visible. 

[00:21:02] Vanessa T: I love what you guys said and I, I wrote it down.

[00:21:05] Humbly conspicuous. I think that's really important and it really helps as you think about how someone builds our careers and helping us to move forward and oftentimes feedback from your peers, your managers really help you. And I still remember feedback that Sergey gave me once before was, Speak up in the meeting.

[00:21:27] I know you have a lot to say, but you were quiet in that meeting. And why were you quiet? You could have said more about what you were thinking. And this piece about feedback has been your work represented in your book, Fair Talk, Three Steps to Powerful Feedback. And it's a must read, I would say, for HR professionals and for leaders.

[00:21:46] It's a really great book that both Vanessa Iloste and I have spent some time reading. And as HR leaders, we cannot emphasize enough the need for fair, focused and credible feedback to help your team develop their careers. Your book offers a very simple three step methodology to giving feedback. And I was wondering if you could share some more of that with our listeners.

[00:22:08] Angela L: Absolutely. And I'm, I'm happy to share the methodology. Let me start by anchoring it to the topic. I know that. Your listeners are most passionate about, and this is this idea of successful transition in the context of the career. And if you think of career as a set, a sequence of opportunities, each of them based on a successful transition, your ability to claim an opportunity, your ability to be a contender for an opportunity is really as strong as you perform it in what you are doing now, you are as good as the work you were doing today, because that's the basis on which your reputation is being built, is being consolidated. And that's the basis of your brand, so to say. So performing well today is core to changing the sequence that comes next, if I perform well today, but particularly in project management, it's going to change what comes next.

[00:23:08] If I perform well today, but I'm best known for feedback, it's going to change what comes next. So important that we do well every day. The only mechanism by which we do well and get better is feedback. And we are notoriously not great at it. We are notoriously poor at self assessment. And typically, you know, none of us, you know, want to hear what we could do differently.

[00:23:34] You didn't want to hear, Vanessa, that you should have spoken up more. And yet reflecting, it could have made such a great difference. It changes the course of somebody's career to get that important piece of feedback. One of the things we know is people don't love feedback, they don't like to get it. We also know that science is clear, people don't like to give it.

[00:23:51] Your ability, therefore, to differentiate yourself as somebody who gets and gives feedback is a phenomenal opportunity. To have a winning career strategy. So we talk to people all the time about ask for feedback. The better you get, the more that you know and have insight into what you can do differently, the more success will follow.

[00:24:14] You will change your behaviors as a result, you'll change your skills, your experiences, that will change your brand and that will lead to opportunities. Love it. But if you are a leader of others. And you want to look after their career and you want to do the right thing by them through fair, credible, focused feedback.

[00:24:35] We try and make it really very, very simple. We say, look, three things. If you can't do a great conversation, if you can't coach, don't worry. Three things. As a minimum, tell people why it is important. Vanessa, why is it important we hear from you? Because you've got great ideas, because you can change the course of a conversation, because you can inspire others with your words.

[00:24:56] Tell people why it matters, right? Second thing, tell them how they're doing. Vanessa, we needed to hear more from you. You can't know that unless that stake is put into the ground, right? People can't know unless they're told. So tell them how they're doing. And then so helpful, so practical, tell them what they need to do.

[00:25:18] Vanessa, I need you to make sure you are bringing three great ideas to every, etc, etc. So three small things, why it matters, how you're doing, what you can do now. So easy to remember and such a game changer for members of your team. 

[00:25:34] Sergey G: I don't know if here there are any fans of the show, The Crown. I remember in season two, so it's still Elizabeth is young and season two, I think it was episode three, she goes and undercover, she meets with this journalist.

[00:25:49] Who gives her feedback. Oh, you are detached from people. You know, monarchy is outdated. And she was so defensive. I said, no, what are you talking about? That's rubbish. And she walks away. Now it's season six and season six, she talks to her husband and says, well, you know what, all the, this poll suggests that monarchy is outdated.

[00:26:11] And probably we should listen to this feedback. It's about time. So it took the queen 50 years to get from being defensive feedback to listening to it. And remember that she wasn't really worried about her career and thinking about employment stability, but we don't have 50 years. If you want to grow, if you want to perform, if you want to be successful and, and fulfilled.

[00:26:37] You need to cultivate this loving relationship with feedback. 

[00:26:42] Vanessa T: And it's both to ask for it as well as to be able to skillfully give it. I know it's so important, Sergey, when you gave me that feedback. It resonated, you gave me great tips on what I could do next, and I always remember that. So in meetings, I'm always thinking, actively thinking, I'm not just a passive participant in a meeting, but you're actively contributing, and it has made, certainly made a difference.

[00:27:06] Vanessa I: She's very active with me. She never stops. She got the feedback and she really took it home, you know, so much that sometimes I wish she couldn't. 

[00:27:14] Sergey G: Oh, brilliant. That's the, that's the hallmark of very successful individuals. If you are able to listen to feedback, take it on and act on it, because very often I see cases, people listen to feedback, say, yes, I acknowledged it, and then do absolutely nothing with it and go back to old habits.

[00:27:31] Angela L: That is a pillar for credibility. I think the research is clear that you are almost better off not to ask than to ask and then not act. 

[00:27:39] Vanessa I: That's very true as well because you can feel it if someone is actually just for the sake asking for feedback not planning to do anything about it. You don't even give the true feedback because you know it's for the show.

[00:27:51] Sergey G: I see this so often, you know, all those people who ask for half an hour with you every quarter and every quarter they have the same script. Oh, like what are you doing? What opportunities are there? And like, do you have any feedback for me? And sometimes you want to help and you give feedback and then the next quarter they come back, do you have any feedback for me?

[00:28:10] Like, what did you do with the feedback I gave you three months ago? And research proves that if people don't act on feedback from their advisors and mentors, those advisors and mentors will distance themselves. So if you ask feedback, intend to act upon.

[00:28:26] Vanessa I: That's very good. So the last thing we wanted to talk about today is around the, the next, uh, gem that you're producing.

[00:28:33] You have a book that is going to be launched. And I understood from Angela, it's called Move Up or Move On. So I would love, Angela and Sergey, that you tell us more about this book and, uh, also share with us the journey about writing this book because I'm pretty sure that the journey is almost as interesting as the book.

[00:28:51] Angela L: Yeah, it is. The book is more interesting than the journey. Other than to say the, the journey, it was work I had been doing for a long time and the combination of that thought process, that experience with the academic rigor that Sergey was able to bring creates a unique combination of a book that has a lot of science behind it.

[00:29:14] It has a lot of experience behind it and it includes a lot of very practical guidance for people, things you can do very practically to support your career. But if I had to say what is the premise, and Sergey, help me out here, but a big thought is that we invest a large amount of time, 90, 000 hours of our lives will be spent at work.

[00:29:36] And not only is it important that those 90, 000 hours are rich and satisfying, but the quality of those hours impacts things like ill health, impacts things like our relationships. So it's so important that we get it right. And yet we don't set about necessarily having a systematic approach. And yet, the science and the research, if you could drove through it, is for all, what are the things that characterize people that actually go on to have careers and we use the language on their terms. So not always necessarily that get to the most senior roles, but get the role they want. And so, we gathered that research, we consolidated it, I want to say, we've tried to make it simple and straightforward and practical, but it really is comprehensive.

[00:30:26] And so much of the literature in the area, the popular literature, is not. It makes things deceptively simple and actually there are 10 behaviors that if we get good at them, will really drive us forward. And you have to know how you're doing on each. And maybe say that that's a great segway to talk about the fact that the book also comes with a diagnostic to help people understand where they start. So they can improve over time. 

[00:30:52] Sergey G: Absolutely. And Angela, actually, that's one of my favorite things about the book, that before you start, you can do a diagnostic and by answering 50 questions that are super simple, but so hard to answer sometimes, you will get an idea of which of those career edge practices you are better at.

[00:31:14] And which are opportunities for improvement, for example, if you are doing great work and you are rewarding colleague and like to learn then, okay, you're creating value and those might be your high scores, but then on connecting to others. Or making your work visible, you will, you will score lower and that will identify a gap.

[00:31:38] Yes, you create a lot of value, you're a producer, but that your work is not visible. That value that you're able to produce today and tomorrow is not many people know about it. And that is a very practical insight. And then you would go maybe straight to those chapters. And in those chapters, you will find a lot of exercises and pieces of advice that you can put in practice tomorrow. 

[00:32:02] Angela L: And in each chapter aligned to each of these career edge behaviors, there are tools, there are templates. You could use them now. You could come back in 12 months and use them again. You know, recalibrate, if perhaps you're working on what is my vision and plan, you know, I'm going to look at that maybe every 12 months.

[00:32:22] And one of the things that we encourage people to do is to think of their career success as a system, anchored in a vision that you have based on performance and building experiences and skills, creating a reputation. Understanding how to get most out of every opportunity. When you approach that as a system, you accelerate, you get momentum.

[00:32:42] And if something's holding that momentum back, go and do the exercise. Do it again, if you need to in three months, see whether or not you're, you're making progress. So very practical. But strongly anchored in what we know to be true. 

[00:32:54] Vanessa I: And how do you think this book is going to be used by the readers? There is a questionnaire, the self diagnosis.

[00:33:01] You have a couple of exercise. Sergey, you have your own company that you are going to create also workshops around it. Like if you have something that is robust, is it also something that could be used in terms of leadership training? 

[00:33:13] Sergey G: Angela and I used to joke that our first book, Fair Talk, was excellent to put your monitors or to read before, uh, before you go to bed, because it had a really helpful ability to put people to sleep.

[00:33:25] With this new book, I really hope that we'll be able to contribute a little bit, just a, a grain of sand into this big idea of democratizing careers and making career management a skill available to all by making it very easy. Practical, very simple, debunking the myths that are so pervasive and telling you those little secrets that your boss may not want to tell you.

[00:33:52] Angela L: And Sergey, that's kind of where I was going to go. There are a lot of books that are written for people who would be successful anyway, quite frankly, books written that tell somebody who went to Harvard how to be even more successful. I hope this is my personal wish. That the person who reads this is maybe they're sitting in the middle of a finance organization.

[00:34:12] Maybe they're an accounts payable, and they don't have to aspire to be the CEO. But you know what? They want more satisfaction at work. Maybe they want more variety. Maybe they aspire for more autonomy. Maybe it's work life balance, but they can get more too. Wherever you are in the organization, you could get more and you should be able to get more.

[00:34:34] And I love that expression, democratizing careers. So something in it for all of us. 

[00:34:39] Sergey G: And the stories that we bring in the books, essentially, you're absolutely right. It's not about Harvard graduates. One of the stories from a girl, very humble beginnings from Singapore, or a French architect from a village with a very difficult childhood, or an immigrant to the U S who was born in the Pittsburgh area of steel mills that were going out of business or an Irishman who had for a very long time not being able to leave the family and you know, we bring to the fore real, raw, relatable stories of people who have made it on their own towards a career on their terms. 

[00:35:20] Vanessa T: I really love how your books are and the work that both of you have done.

[00:35:25] Has always been anchored in science, it's based on experiences, it's practical, and, and so important that your work is accessible and relatable to anyone at any stage in their career. We are so looking forward to the launch of your book. We will be sure to pick up copies of your book, then hopefully we'll bring you back onto our show after the launch of your book.

[00:35:49] Just before we wrap up, we would love if you could just distill your top three advice for someone who's going through a career transition, what would you say to them? 

[00:36:01] Angela L: I don't know that this is three, but I do know it's a topic that we have written about because we feel very committed to it. There is a lot of emphasis quite rightly on making that transition, focusing on your first 30, 60, 90 days, setting yourself up for success.

[00:36:17] And all that is true. We do add a plea for those people in transition, keep your mind on that long game, because how you approach your job today is also already predetermining the next opportunity and the next opportunity. So, start with the big end in mind, as well as the short term. 

[00:36:41] Sergey G: From my side, one, know yourself.

[00:36:44] Whatever you're good at and whatever you're bad at will be accentuated at the time of transition. So, know yourself and have a plan. Two, don't try to do everything in the first 90 days. That's time for you to get the lay of the land, to get orientated, and have maybe One or two first quick wins that are easily noticeable.

[00:37:07] And three, don't think that you can do it alone. Transitions are times fraught with dangers and challenges. And there is so much that you can learn from others, the materials, the support, books, people around you. always have this mentality that people want to help. Don't hesitate to reach out. 

[00:37:28] Vanessa I: Well, thank you so much for joining us on the show.

[00:37:31] Now I know why Vanessa T keeps on talking about the two of you and I understand your chemistry and I can really see, you know, all the good things you are working on and thank you for your contribution to the HR field and to the leadership field. We wish you all the best for the book launch in May and we are going to be your ambassadors, your champions.

[00:37:51] And all the best for the continuation of your research together and all the thought leadership you will be sharing with us in the next few years. 

[00:37:59] Angela L: Thank you so much. 

[00:38:00] Sergey G: Thank you guys. You're so terrific.