A Mindful Approach to Career Transitions with Gaston Schmitz | E3

We explore the importance of adopting a mindful approach and the benefits of executive coaching during career transitions.

We speak with Gaston Schmitz, executive and founder coach at the Asian Leadership Institute. He shares more about how a mindful approach to managing our emotions can help elevate self-awareness during times of transitions. He also shares his thoughts on executive coaching, and the transformational impact it can have on leaders.

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· Vanessa Iloste (Host)

· Vanessa Teo (Host)

· Aaron Wu (Producer)

Transcript

[00:00:00] Vanessa T: Hello, everyone. Today in our next episode, we'll be speaking with executive coach Gaston Schmitz from the Asian Leadership Institute. And we'll be speaking about career transitions and the importance of having a mindful approach through our transitions. We'll talk about the importance of having conscious communication, really having that intentional communication and being very purposeful in how we go about communicating changes.

And finally, we're going to talk about what's happening in our brains as we go through these changes. 

[00:00:38] Vanessa I: That's right, Vanessa and I love this episode because this episode is full of concrete examples and we have gone into the details of some of the difficulties of transition. So pay attention to these examples because among them, there is maybe one that will really apply to your situation.

Hi everyone. Welcome to our new episode of Carrier Transition. We are your host, Vanessa Iloste and Vanessa Teo. 

[00:01:12] Vanessa T: And we are so excited today to introduce our guest for today, Gaston Smich. We've both known Gaston for almost 10 years now, and it's been our great pleasure working with him in different capacities over the years.

[00:01:25] Vanessa I: We are so happy to have you on the show, Gaston, and I will spend a couple of minutes to introduce your background. You are the executive and one of the partners of the Asian Leadership Institute. You have been coaching for many years, and in your coaching, you use three important angles, which are mindfulness, conscious communication, and neuroscience.

You have been working all around the world in many, many countries with many, many people from different backgrounds, but in the last couple of years, you have been focused on startup coaches, startup coaching. So you are coaching people from the startup. And this is something you have told us with Vanessa T how much you enjoy and how much joy it gives you actually to work with this startup people.

We want also to introduce your background. You were born in the Netherlands and you have been living all over the world from 2008 to 2020. You have lived in Asia. And at that time, the time we met you, you were actually based in Chiang Mai and you were the coach at that time for us for the Asian Leadership Institute.

In 2020, you came back to Europe and you are now living in Belgium with your wife. And your two sons and you are also an advocate for conscious capitalism, active entrepreneurship, and you are a board member of several nonprofit companies. So, so great to have you on the show and a big welcome to you Gaston.

[00:02:56] Gaston S: Fantastic. Thank you. It's a real pleasure to be on this session with you two Vanessa's with both very bright energy. So very, very excited and very excited about this topic today. 

[00:03:08] Vanessa T: Excellent. Thank you Gaston for joining us. Um, you know, Gaston throughout your life and career, you've made some really crucial transitions moving between several different countries, becoming an executive coach and now partner at the Asian Leadership Institute, and then recently making a move back to Europe after living in Asia for over 12 years.

Now, these are some really significant transitions that you've made in life and in career. So can you tell us what prompted these moves and how did you navigate through these transitions? 

[00:03:42] Gaston S: Yeah, thank you. Let me focus on maybe the two major ones that are perhaps a bit unusual for maybe even people that are listening to this, but the first one was actually right out of university.

So I did my first master's degree in business studies and all my, this was in the Netherlands. All my peers would go and work for these big corporates, right? That's what you do, when that happens, and I did my first internship with, with Unilever, but in Mozambique, the South part of Africa. And what I quickly realized there is even though I liked Unilever, I got incredibly inspired and intrigued by developing countries and emerging economies.

So I came back to the Netherlands and had the opportunity to go and work for some of the major corporations in the Netherlands, but eventually I had this silent whisper in my ear that this path was maybe not mine, but I had to do something else. Something, what I felt was more meaningful at that time.

And so, which was working for nonprofits and working in the development world. And eventually I did a second master's in development studies and started working for nonprofits. So for the first six years out of those university years, I worked for nonprofits, which was very, again, unusual for my profile and required a lot of courage and going against the stream, if you like, but that also really helped me get exposure to, you know, I worked in over 30 countries for those different organizations. Got a lot of different insights, which helped me in my job today as an executive coach a lot. So that, that was the first transition I would highlight. My second transition was when I moved away from that nonprofit world.

And that was around 2011, 2012. I went in and worked for the Asian Leadership Institute. So this was in Chiang Mai, Thailand at that time, that Institute's been around for many decades. Actually, more than 40 years ago that was founded and I eventually joined them as one of their coaches and later on one of their partners and leading some of their practices.

And why that was such a unique transition was because having been exposed to mostly the nonprofit world and I basically worked on behavioral change at scale in some of the poorest countries in the world. And so I worked a lot in, in the Congo and Sierra Leone and different places in Africa, but also in Kosovo, but also in Papua New Guinea, like radical different environments than today's corporate world.

So suddenly I was again, working on behavioral change, but for senior level executives in a corporate setting. And that was a really big transition for me because I had to learn that environment, learn that sector and also reinvent myself in many different ways. 

[00:06:28] Vanessa I: One of the things we shared with you earlier when we prepared the conversation was the fact that when we met you, you had just come out from this transition and you started working with us, and I felt at that time that the, the voice you had or the, the resonation you had was very, very different compared to the other coaches.

So that is very interesting because what you are describing as a form of hurdle or a form of obstacle, actually, once you had, you know, gone and overcome it. You made it something that became something along the lines of your signature or something along the lines of your superpower. Because I remember talking to you and feeling like this is someone who is very authentic.

This is someone who is very convinced about his belief and he's not precious about it. And I thought that it was really interesting actually to hear this. So I found that this is interesting that you share with us. This transition and the difficulty you might have into it and see how I perceived it maybe a couple of years later as a client of yours.

[00:07:33] Gaston S: Yeah. And I think what helped me, especially in that second transition was two things. I mean, that exposure to so many different cultures, countries, backgrounds, even religious backgrounds. Like I traveled and worked so much around the world that I've realized that I could do perspective taking quite well.

I would always go in without judgment in these places and go to places to learn. So that learning mindset and not coming in with needing to be the expert or needing to know was very helpful for me. So I would also go into these new settings with the intent. Like I'm just going to learn. I'm going to appreciate.

Yeah. And if I can contribute something, I'll do that as well. That's the first thing, and the second thing that really helped me navigate a lot of transitions in my life is mindfulness practice. Because I, I was last 20 years, I've been really exposed into a Zen practice on mindfulness. Thich Nhat Hanh is one of my inspirations, which really helps me always be grounded, be non judgmental and not get too carried away with my own thoughts or emotions when I'm in new settings.

[00:08:41] Vanessa T: So Gaston, through your many coaching engagements, you've supported executives through leadership transitions. So what has been some of the biggest challenges that you've seen as leaders transition into leadership roles? 

[00:08:55] Gaston S: Great question. And indeed, these days transitions are so prevalent, right? I mean, I don't have to tell you, but it's much more prevalent than before.

And I think what the interesting thing of transitions is, is that you have to really reinvent yourself as a leader. So that set of strengths and qualities that kind of got you here won't get you there, right? The classic quote, but it, it has real repercussions, both on the emotional and mental level. And one statement that we often say as coaches is the single most limiting thing that you ever did to yourself is create a personality, because that idea of who you think you are right, your personality with all your patterns, your belief systems, your assumptions, your judgments, it actually brings us to a certain degree of success.

But then if the surrounding and the environment changes or you get a new job, what we often encounter is that that personality, which we call your autopilot, it's like your default way of being and behaving is no longer sufficient to be really successful. And the challenge is that that often becomes our identity, right?

So we really get identify like, this is who I am. And so what we try to do in transition coaching is first of all, let leaders make a little bit of an inventory of their personality patterns. Like what is actually, what defines you and how do you operate and then which of those patterns are still really serving you in this new role and which ones might be holding you back and you have to basically reinvent some of those things or try new behaviors because what normally happens when leaders move into transition... they, and I've seen as many times, they think they, especially if the scope of the role just increases, they may be do the same thing as before, but faster or more efficiently, right? Or they work just harder than before, but they still do the same thing. And so it's very important to first come back and start understanding how aspects of their programming and conditioning can now hold them back, even though it was helping them get to a certain degree of success and recognition.

So I think that's one of the important things, right? The challenges where leaders actually need to sometimes slow down to speed up in these transitions, right? First, get more introspective, understand, which is hard because these days leaders have to hit the ground running, right? They instantly have to deliver.

But actually slowing down and being a bit more introspective, intentional, deliberate, I think is one, one big thing that is really important. And allowing themselves some time to do that. It's good to have some quick wins, obviously, but also know that in the first 60 days, 30, 60 days, it's important to, uh, to sometimes get more in an observer mode than instantly trying to add as much value as you can.

[00:11:38] Vanessa T: How do you work with your clients to take a moment to be introspective? Because in our world of this fast speed business, you know, we just want to get so much done, it's oftentimes really hard for an executive to really take the time to reflect and to take time for themselves. So how do you go about coaching your leaders through transitions to be self aware and to take time for themselves?

[00:12:04] Gaston S: Yeah, you first have to help them pause a bit, right? Because I mean, depending on the leaders, but there's a lot of adrenaline in the system these days, right? And leaders that are running, running and so first kind of shift their nervous system as I sometimes call it, right? So, and this doesn't have to take a long time, but sometimes I start my calls with just a few mindful breaths.

So we just calm down or we just become aware of the state that we're in as we're coming into the call. Simple things to just let them slow down. So some of that adrenaline energy calms down so people can become more reflective. The other thing is that I've seen in transitions, people are very quick to just jump into their new job right away, but you're actually also saying goodbye to the earlier job, right?

Which has certain emotional aspects to it. Uh, there's a bit of grief if you want to call it that way, right? Of letting go and what that all means. And then there's a real welcoming and inviting of the new situation and all of that, all of these things have emotional undertones. So one way of getting people to really connect with that is to label some of that or, or inquiry around what's happening at that feeling level, because many leaders skip over that.

Again, it's not necessarily spend hours talking about how you feel and get all warm and fuzzy about it, but you do need to give some appropriate attention to what's happening beyond the mental or the intellect level. Yeah, I've seen that. That's important because else it's playing in the background on undertones and it comes out in different ways in their new interactions with people. So it's better to do that, clear that when you're coached than, than it coming out unexpectedly. 

[00:13:43] Vanessa I: I've witnessed you actually helping people to level their emotions when we were working together and, uh, it was powerful. It was really powerful. Like I remember some of my former colleagues, maybe formulating for the first time some of the emotions that they had never talked to anyone before.

And it was just a group of three or four of us, you know, listening to them. And it was, it was very liberating. It was very interesting for me to observe them having access to these labels because all of a sudden, you know, they, they felt almost like a sense of relief. It was almost like as if they had been, uh, suffering from the facts of these emotions were in suspension and they had not completely exhausted their power.

And the moment they talked to us about them, it was almost like, you know, they, they had been labeled. And they were able to describe them and it was less scary, I think, for them at the same time. So it was very interesting, the discovery of these words and at the same time, the fact that yes, actually it's, it's now that it's a word, it's, it's something that I can talk about and I feel much more comfortable about it. 

[00:14:56] Gaston S: And that's spot on, right? And if you look at the science of it, if you label a particular emotional state, the intensity of that emotion can drop with up to 50% five zero. So, and why is that? It's because instead of being that emotion, you're now seeing that emotion, right?

So the ability to move into somewhat of an observer state, it doesn't mean that the emotion is gone, but it's just, you're realizing that you're more than just that emotion. And this is so fundamental. It's, it's a foundation of mindfulness practice and we don't even need to label fully correctly, frankly, we're constantly feeling a mix of different emotions.

We never feel one emotion and it's constantly in flux, right? Emotion, energy in motion, basically. So it's constantly moving, but just the intention of checking in. It's like, what is actually present there? And so that awareness is the first step. But the second one that I really help a lot of executives with is normalizing some of these emotions, because all of us have certain ideas about what emotions we should be feeling and what we shouldn't be feeling.

And that creates all kinds of other internal conflicts for these leaders. And one thing that I've realized in transitions, it's very normal to feel insecure. Even in a subtle way. Some people have it in a more pronounced way, but if you put yourself as a leader in a radically new job with new conditions and new context, automatically, there's going to be some insecurity coming up, perhaps some anxiety coming up.

And what I've seen as a lot of leaders think something's wrong with them, if that's present. And what I always helped them understand is like. Of course, there's some of that. Whenever you put yourself massively out of your comfort zone and you stretch yourself, some of these feeling tones will come up.

And so the moment that you just give that as place. Don't feed it. Don't make it bigger. That's really important. Don't create all kinds of stories around it, but just the acknowledgement of those initial feeling tones is very important. So you can give them a place, but still stay committed to what you're there to do.

[00:16:58] Vanessa T: So through your coaching practice at the Asian Leadership Institute, you've engaged many of our leaders in one or more of group coaching engagements. We've seen many executives actually benefit really greatly from the group coaching, where you have three participants and a coach. Maybe can you share with this group a bit more about group coaching and its benefits?

[00:17:18] Gaston S: Thank you. Yeah, this came actually to its first design many years ago. And we really looked at what makes for sustainable behavioral change and transformation in people, including in leaders and what we realized, even though we started off as our core business being one on one executive coaching, we realized for a lot of behavioral change process, community or some support system is very important. And so we looked at many different applications of this and quickly realized that if you have a small group of individuals that support each other in transition, and you have somebody that makes sure that the level of conversation is going deep enough and that people aren't just being nice and comfortable with each other, but they really push each other.

In the right way that there's some magic that happens, right? Because and this is how we came up with this idea of three C coaching or triad coaching where we put in the three leaders generally peers together with one of our coaches and they go through this program of six months with which has some content and it's got some other elements, a small 360, but the essence for this conversation is that we've seen that if you put these people together in a safe space, in a confidential space where they can talk about what they're experiencing in their leadership transition, it's very powerful because what they can experience is empathy, first of all, from their peers, but they also can give each other feedback.

They can challenge each other. They can encourage and motivate each other. And so you create this platform where first of all, people learn that they're not alone. That actually what they're feeling in transitions, can be quite comparable to what others are feeling, even though the context might be quite different.

And so that's very important. And then they can help each other progress and not judge each other, obviously, but really create this safe space where they can help each other get better every moment. And, and just also be listened to. I mean, that's a big need for many people because what, what happens either, especially in social media, right, we all compare what's going on for us on the inside, but what's going on for others in the outside. Right? 

So you see all these LinkedIn scrolls, but all these people have amazing transitions, right? And they're all thriving in their new roles and their adventures. And I might be in a transition. I read that on my LinkedIn feed and I'm like, why am I not feeling that excited, right? I feel actually quite insecure.

I feel I have a terrible new boss and I don't know what to do. And I think that that, that small group coaching gives a space to be really authentic and real and, and realize there's also another side than the LinkedIn feed. Right? Well, obviously, yeah, we all know that it's, it's harder than it looks like on social media.

[00:20:09] Vanessa T: And how do you go about really building this level of trust between the coachees? Because having three people who come together and being able to share so openly in such a confidential space requires a great deal of trust. Um, especially when you're talking about some really crucial transitions that you're going through, how do you help to build that level of trust in this group?

[00:20:32] Gaston S: Yeah, great question. I'd single out three things. There's many factors and obviously this is our job, right? So we have to constantly get better at that. But three things I would say the first one is just very clear ground rules at the start of these processes. Right? So people really know what they're getting into.

It's not some loose kind of in the moment processes like this, these are the rules of play and really expressing and transferring those with groundedness and centeredness. I think that's very important. Secondly, a very predictable structure and process. So again, we have, it's very clear. We have every two weeks, a session is different modules, there's this and that.

So people know what's coming, right? Some degree of predictability because they already are in an unpredictable world, right? They're just in transition. So they have a lot of moving parts to create some predictability. And the third thing is the actual facilitator, the coach. That needs to be a very grounded and mindful themselves, but also create that trust.

There's many different ways to do that. Sometimes it's getting sharing their own vulnerabilities and their own experiences about transition, or it might be connecting really at the human level, or sometimes it might be being very grounded and centered and hold that space very tightly for them. So they know that they're held properly. Right? 

So there's no fixed formula for that last part. But we do train our facilitators to quickly create that. And with some groups that takes a few weeks. But generally we've seen within The first three modules of our program, generally these groups are now feeling very good, very safe, and then you see this accelerated curve in terms of their progress and transformation.

[00:22:17] Vanessa I: I remember when I did the triad coaching with you, it was a very difficult moment in my life. It was exactly, uh, I mean, coinciding with, uh, losing and passing of my dad, passing of my father. And, uh, and I was really, I mean, when I reflect on what you did at that time with us, you were absolutely amazing in making sure that I had a voice and I was able to communicate to my two colleagues and they were incredible support to me at that time.

And they were really, really good, you know, and at the same time. keeping us very focused on the lesson and the class and whatever we had to study or the module we had to study at that time. And I, I remember this session as something very, very special because it was, um, it was an opportunity for me to open my eyes on, on my reality.

I mean, it was clear I was losing my dad. He was going to go, but at the same time, Opening my eyes about the most beautiful things in life, which is creating friendship through your work, having the support from people you would never expect to find support from and getting a lot of joy from this group.

I want to commend your exceptional facilitation skills because I must have been one of the very difficult cases that you had to deal with. And frankly, of course I was not doing it on purpose, but, but, uh, yeah, it was quite amazing see how much, you know, positive energy. And I want to say thank you for all the positive energy you gave me at that time.

[00:23:49] Gaston S: Thank you, Vanessa. Now what also happened, which I have to thank you for, and which is the beautiful thing in these group processes. If one of the three people really goes one level deeper, whether it's in terms of their vulnerability or their authenticity, it's contagious. And that's the beautiful thing because the other two group members, I remember this is many years ago, right?

But I always like these moments as a facilitator because deep down, I think deep down, we all have this desire to be really, to live authentic lives. Like truly authentic lives. And so when we see authenticity in other people, or which is often connected to vulnerability, right? Authenticity is one of the key ingredients and vulnerability.

It's very appealing to people and people realize, ah, actually I want to live a more authentic life. Right. And so these are the spaces we want to create. This is exactly, and this is what I love. What I do is when we hit those places where people can really be themselves and, and especially in transition, because you're so conscious in those early stages of transition, right?

You need to manage perceptions and reputation and need to make sure those first few impressions are really good because everyone will remember those and so we want to create these spaces through our 3C coaching or even one on one coaching where people can join a call and just relax, they can just be themselves without needing to overly filter, without needing to overly be Perception management, right?

And so, and that is what people really often need. It's like, Oh, we often get these comments. Like it's the moment of the week where I can just relax. I don't need to be anybody else than just myself. And if you can start learning to do that with two colleagues. You can start learning to do that with more and more people, and then you can really step into authentic leadership.

[00:25:42] Vanessa I: So one of the things we have actually uncovered is the fact that network and relationship are actually so critical to this transition. And it's very important to be able to leverage them, to be able to, you know, find the strength to go through the transition. So one of the questions we wanted to ask you is, Vanessa, is if you don't have these strong networks in place, like imagine that you are moving to another place and the, you know, in the part of the world, how do you build these networks from scratch or how do you create something you might not have in the first place?

[00:26:18] Gaston S: That's a great question. I, I'd actually two thoughts when you shared, especially when you need to move country, you need to move place in transition. I would say it's really important to have some form of a refuge. Like it comes a bit from a Buddhist background or in terms of psychology that I have, but that taking, having a refuge is something that you can get back to in any context or setting.

It can be a mindfulness practice can be meditation. It can be sports. It can be your evening run, right? Or it can be certain inspiration sources that you can connect to when you're really struggling in an inspiration or in a transition, right? So I think that's really important, which can take many different shapes and forms.

So that is important, but also that creating that network. One thing I've seen, it doesn't need to be a big network. I think when you're in transition, you basically need some support that is more perhaps of a mentoring kind. Well, you have somebody that can help you with the more hard skills, technical aspects of navigating this new role.

And then you need somebody or a group or several people that could help you navigate more than I don't like this word, but the softer aspects of the transition. Well, you can process these things and yeah, how that network or how that support system looks like can be very diverse. It doesn't even need to be in the business realm or in the professional realm.

And this might be, it can be spiritual. It can be in terms of a sports community, can be many different things. So don't limit yourself in terms of what the support system can be, but don't be afraid to ask for help. Very difficult for very many successful leaders, but the ability to just say 'hey, I could use some help here', right?

Or I could ask for people's advice or inputs. There's a bit of a barrier often around that, but the leaders that have done well in transitions are also the one who don't hesitate to ask for help. 

[00:28:16] Vanessa T: So career transitions can be really disruptive and challenging at times, both personally and professionally.

So what's your advice in terms of managing our emotions and levels of self awareness? 

[00:28:28] Gaston S: I often see that this gets not enough intention and transitions, right? We very often focus on the skills you need to learn certain growth areas as a leader, but how do you actually navigate the emotional transition that's happening at the same time?

And again, I'm biased because of my background. So I have a very strong mindfulness perspective on this, but what I've seen is two aspects. One is you have to build your mindfulness muscle and ideally before you get into transition, right? It's nice the whole theory about mindfulness, but if you don't build that muscle, it's very hard to apply it when you're under stress, pressure or in the transition, right?

So some of that work starts before and now you can build your mindfulness muscle many different ways. It doesn't have to be formal meditation, it can be applied mindfulness, it can be mindful walking, all kinds of practices. This would be a different podcast and I'm happy to talk more about, but the first one is build that muscle.

The second one is then applying it when you really need it in those transitions. And I would, I would pick maybe two things. One is also mindfulness of being kind to yourself, I would say is one aspect. Like I've seen a lot of leaders be very, of course, we all have a high bar, including for ourselves. And we're very often more caring, kind, and compassionate to others than we are for ourselves in transitions. Right? 

They're also much more forgiving when other people transition, right? Rather than ourselves and so, there's something around being kind and just doing the best we can and not beating ourselves up if things don't go exactly as planned. And the second part is, is making sure that some of the unpleasant emotional states that will naturally arise in transitions, that we don't make them bigger than they are.

So that again means don't get judgmental about yourself. Stay in growth mindset. We haven't talked too much about it, but obviously adopt a mindset that is focused on optimizing for learning rather than getting everything right. So again, if you, if you switch on that mindset of. I'm going to learn as fast as I can.

And as much as I can in this next 30 to 60 days, that should help you manage your emotional state as well. Because even though you might do things that you're disappointed about, if you reframe that in terms of learning, it should help you to not blow that out of proportion. So those are a couple of tips.

[00:30:54] Vanessa T: Excellent. So much of what you've talked about today really resonated with me as I go through my own transition in my role today. So thank you Gaston for really great insights and wisdom that you shared with us today. 

[00:31:09] Vanessa I: Thank you Gaston. And I felt a little bit like going back to seven years ago when I was actually doing the triad with you and you reminded me a lot of the, of the modules actually we, we studied together.

So that was really great. Is there a couple of key points we have discussed today that you think will be useful for our audience to take away and to keep in mind? Because there are so many things we have covered that maybe, you know, they had, they, they need a little bit of help to focus on. The ones that you believe in your practice are the most useful.

[00:31:43] Gaston S: I would say let's start with that last one, right? So adopt that growth mindset, which is very much at the, I would say at the, yeah, mindset. So a bit more at the mental level, but it's really through which lens are you looking through in that transition, right? So reframing things in terms of learning.

Rather than needing to get everything right. The second one is I think, ask for help. So don't forget you're not alone. Many people have gone through transitions, be humble and open about it and ask for help. And, uh, maybe the third one is find your own refuge as you're going through that transition, right?

So what could that look like for you? What's your anchor? That you can go back to again. It might be a teacher. It might be sports. It might be some spiritual practice you have. It might be something, but something that brings you back to the meta level as you're maybe scrambling in your transition. That you realize I can always go back to that.

And, uh, those would be my top three. 

[00:32:40] Vanessa T: That's great. Thank you so much Gaston for joining us today on the Career Transitions podcast and for sharing some of your really invaluable advice and wisdom with us today. You've been an incredible coach to so many executives and we want to wish you all the very best as you continue this important work.

Thank you for joining us today. 

[00:33:02] Vanessa I: Thank you so much Gaston.